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Feedback Compilation

Feedback for May 2000

Selected reader letters and TalkOrigins responses from May 2000.

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Entry 1

Feedback Letter

From
Dr. J.A. Morrow
Comment
Have you ever read the book EVOLUTION DECEIT by Harun Yayha? If so, perhaps you should consider addressing some of his claims. The book is widely distributed. I am surprised that you have not referred to it.

Response

From
Kenneth Fair
Response
It is evidently not that widely distributed. Neither Amazon nor Barnes and Noble lists it amongst their titles.
Entry 2

Feedback Letter

From
Simeon Bidwell
Comment
Hello peoples. If (macro)evolution is so obvious, and is scientific "fact" (Whatever you say it is), then why does everyone need to be taught about it? Wouldn't it be stunningly clear to everyone?

In fact, why do we have no mention of (macro)evolution before Darwin? Didn't their brains evolve enough to understand? (If 50 people have a random thought, does that make it a fact?)

Oh, and your reply to my last email was wrong. (feb 2000)

Response

From
John Wilkins
Response
Philosopher David Hull once said "Evolution is so simple, almost anyone can misunderstand it". Macroevolution is obvious, in a way, if you know the evidence, but there is a mountain of information to assimilate first, and then you have to be able to work out the implications of the evidence and the hypothesis. This is true of every science. If gravity is so simple and so obvious, why did we take thousands of years to understand it? If electricity is so obvious, why didn't the Egyptians understand it? Etc.

Macroevolution *was* proposed before Darwin. See the Darwin's Precursors and Influences FAQ". However, one interesting point is that humans evolved to deal with a stable environment and a limited number of living kinds. We didn't evolve to understand evolution, and the work of thousands of researchers is required to come to grips with a complex and changing biological world for that very reason.

Entry 3

Feedback Letter

From
wavering
Comment
I recently read a work by John A. Davison, Ph.D., professor of biology at the University of Vermont entitled "AN EVOLUTIONARY MANIFESTO: A NEW HYPOTHESIS FOR ORGANIC CHANGE." In this work he challenges the traditional Darwinian notion that natural selection is the mechanism by which macroevolution occurs in sexually reproducing organisms. He instead proposes the "semi-meiotic hypothesis" to explain speciation/macroevolution. Essentially, he proposes that "evolution" occurs at the level of the chromosome, not the gene. He does not dispute that changes in gene frequency occur within a species (e.g., peppered moths), but at the same time he does not believe that this same mechanism (i.e., natural selection) accounts for macroevolution. Is this hypothesis plausible?

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

It is commonly held that speciation processes are largely, if not totally, independent of natural selection. In this Davison is simply part of the crowd. I recently heard a talk given by Kurt Benirschke which attributed most speciational changes in mammals to chromosomal fusion events. So, when properly delimited, saying that much of the speciation we see in mammals (or perhaps even vertebrate animals) is due to some sort of chromosomal rearrangement is plausible, since that is what the karyotype data seems to show.

In looking at Davison's "manifesto", I personally found some reasons for concern about the validity of various points. Since I have long heard similar claims about chromosomal rearrangement and speciation, the claimed novelty of Davison's hypothesis seems more hype than substance. There seems to be a lot of textual interpretation within the work which purports significance in the real world. Quotations seem to be treated much as "proof-texts" are in apologetics. Many of his claims about what "Darwinism" must entail are arguable, and some are simply wrong. I think that in Davison's particular case, he might hold a correct position with regard to speciation events being often due to chromosomal rearrangement without having grounded his other corollaries in much besides his personal prejudices, buttressed with some quotes from others having congruent prejudices.

In general, when evaluating non-mainstream claims, it is good to keep one's skepticism sharp. The taint of self-aggrandizement is a clue that should not be overlooked. Something of a field guide for such behavior in physics can be applied with a few changes to biological topics.

Wesley

Entry 4

Feedback Letter

Comment
Hello. I enjoy this website very much, but I would like to ask a few questions. My honors biology teacher taught that protobionts (microspheres) could not evolve into the first living cells because protobionts are merely globules of lipids and nothing more. Is this true? Also, if evolution is true, what do scientists predict will happen in the evolution of humans and other creatures in the the next billion years? Thank you very much.

Response

From
John Wilkins
Response
"Protobiont" is a term that is not restricted to the microspheres of Sidney Fox et al, but to any putative incipient life form. It seems obvious that a simple microsphere of lipids wouldn't do much, but a microsphere of lipids that enclosed an array of molecules, possibly including some form of RNA, which formed an autocatalytic hypercycle, might.

As evolution is true, but it is a highly contingent process that is not regular in its behavior, we cannot predict what the future evolution of any species, including humans, much further than in the range of decades. A billion years is a bit more difficult...

However, we can make some prediction if we assume constant conditions, stable ecologies, and no massive die-off or isolation of peripheral populations: humans will remain pretty much the same as they are now. Excluding possible genetic engineering scenarios, of course.

Entry 5

Feedback Letter

From
Paul Verhage
Comment
I don't have access to usenet. I need to find out some information on Andrew Snelling. A student here brought an article by him discussing c-14 dating to a piece of wood in Marlstone, located in Dorset England. The limestones date to 187 MYA and Snelling claims they were able to date the wood to 25,000 years old. Snelling claims they weren't tree roots, but doesn't give evidence of this.

Do you have any additional information?

Thanks

Response

From
John Wilkins
Author of
Evolution and Philosophy
Response
Information about Andrew Snelling and his schizophrenic geology can be found in Telling Lies for God by Ian Plimer. The T.O Archive also has some information on him - a search will show the links, particularly How not to argue with creationists by Jim Lippard.
Entry 6

Feedback Letter

From
NJA
Comment
According to John Wilkins April response, all scientific knowledge is theoretical. Right. I suppose that someone who says insane things like this doesn't know about the Law of Gravity. Did you see what I just said? The LAW of Gravity. I know we don't know WHAT Gravity is, but the people reading this know, I'm sure, that there is such a thing as Gravity. In fact, Gravity is a LAW. Many years ago Gravity was a theory, but although it is not known what it is, we still feel its effects. I am a creationist by the way. My creationist comrades will readily admit that we BELIEVE in creation. Now will the evolutionists come out, and admit that their theory is also a faith?? Sincerly for Jesus Christ, NJA,17

Response

From
John Wilkins
Response
Don't be misled by terminology. Calling a scientific theory a law is to say that it is a generally applicable equation in a model of (in this case) physical objects and how they interact.

Evolution is a process that we model theoretically. It occurs, and how it occurs is modelled in the equations of population genetics.

It is not a faith. Nobody is required by catechism to believe in evolution, but if you are a scientist working in the field of biology and you wish to explain how organisms in all their diversity came to be, you had better either accept that evolution occurs or come up with a better (scientific) explanation. Declarations of faith are no good as science.

Entry 7

Feedback Letter

From
Eric
Comment
Hi. I'm a Christian 11th grader that home-schools. I just wanted to ask why are evolutionists so convinced that their theory is true? One of the facts that totally debunks the theory of evolution is the fact that transitional form fossils have NEVER been found. You probably won't publish this, but I still wanted to speak out. Oh yeah another thing....if we are from the animal kingdom & we are just an "intelligent species" don't you think this is part of the suicide problems in America today? "I'm just an animal I have nothing to live for" This could be the last thought a suicidal individual has before their death. Think about it. Thanks for reading this (if you did)

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

Many biologists have looked at the evidence and found it convincingly supports evolutionary theories concerning adaptation, biogeography, behavior, and descent.

The assertion that transitional fossil sequences are absent falters upon examination of the evidence. The Vertebrate Transitional Fossils FAQ discusses some of this evidence.

If the reader wishes to speak out without fear of an editing process, there are many fora available. Of course, the Usenet talk.origins newsgroup is one of those.

The phenomenon of suicide predates modern evolutionary biology, and as a problem could as simply be ascribed to the idea of the person contemplating it saying, "I'm just a sinner who God hates and is punishing, so I have nothing to live for." That could also be the last thought a suicidal individual has before their death. Given the numbers on belief touted by various anti-evolutionists, the overwhelming majority of US citizens believes in some form of Christianity. Unless one comes up with numbers showing a disproportionate percentage of unbelievers takes up suicide, I'd say that the alternative "last thought" is the more likely one.

Wesley

Entry 8

Feedback Letter

Comment
May 29

I am writing to comment on a portion of Ken Harding’s reply to a message posted on the April Feedback. In objecting to the thesis of a posting (that the United States is a Christian nation), Mr. Harding wrote, “In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that ‘the government of the United States, is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion’. ” The treaty in question did say this so Mr. Harding is correct as far as that goes, but the story of the treaties with Tripoli, and the Barbary Wars that led to the final one, is somewhat more complicated.

Pursuant to treaties with the Barbary powers (Algerians), signed in 1795 and 1796, the young United States was forced to make large payments of tribute, naval stores, and “incidental blackmail” to the Tripolitan government. The latter treaty, concluded in Tripoli on Nov. 4, 1796, contained in its Eleventh Article the quote repeated by Mr. Harding.

However, in 1801 the pasha of Tripoli demanded more money from the United States, and when this was refused he went to war (the Barbary Wars). After a vigorously pursued campaign by the United States, including a 500 mile march across the desert to attack an important city, the pasha capitulated and signed a new treaty on June 4,1805. This treaty, negotiated by the U. S. from a position of strength, said nothing about the Christian religion. An interesting coda to this affair is found in a letter from William Eaton, the U. S. consul at Tunis; to Commodore John Rodgers, the U. S. naval commander. In his letter of June 13, 1805, Eaton wrote, “Our peace with Tripoli is certainly more favorable; and, considered separately, more honorable than any peace obtained by any Christian nation with a Barbary regency, . . .”. Regardless of what any treaty may have said, the U. S. consul certainly appears to have considered the United States to be a Christian nation.

(The account of the War and treaties is from the Encyclopedia Americana, [“Barbary Wars,” pp. 222-23]. Eaton’s letter is reproduced in American State Papers, Documents, Legislative and Executive of the Congress of the United States covering the period 3-3-1789 to 3-3-1815, edited by Walter Lowrie and Matthew St. Clair Clarke; Vol. II; p. 716; Washington: Gales and Seaton; 1832.)

In his scholarly work “Church and State in the United States,” Anson Phelps Stokes treats this subject (the treaty with Tripoli and the Christian antecedents of the United States). He writes, “In the early days of the Federal government several of the states, by the oaths of office prescribed in their constitutions, by the specified disqualifications for office, or by other methods, did as a matter of fact virtually establish Christianity, and sometimes Protestant Christianity, as the religion of the State, and this without constitutional challenge of the part of the Federal government. . . . There can be no question that the states and the Federal government considered that they were Christian states.

“The only statement of any importance which we have found in the official documents of the United States which seems to deny specifically that the government was founded on the Christian religion is Article XI of the treaty with Tripoli . . ..”

After a brief discussion of Article XI (containing the ‘not founded on the Christian religion’ clause), Stokes writes, “The clause has often been quoted by those who wish to deny that the United States as a government has any special regard for the Christian religion, but they have almost invariably failed to call attention to the fact that the treaty was superseded, less than a decade later, by [another treaty] in which the clause in question denying that the United States ‘is, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion’ is omitted.” Stokes also writes, “The change [omitting the 1797 clause] . . . is highly significant from our standpoint, especially as it was made during the Jefferson administration." Stokes ends the discussion by noting the “Christian ethic and ideal” that underlie our government.

(This is quoted or derived from pp. 497-99 of Stokes’ book, a multi-volume set. The material is in Chapter VII, “Religious Freedom after 1787”.)

I am not necessarily asking Mr. Harding to take back anything he has written about this subject, but it would seem that his treatment of it is decidedly superficial.

Entry 9

Feedback Letter

From
Russell Glasser
Comment
I've been enjoying wading my way through all the feedback pages. Working backwards, I am back to August 99.

Let me point out an obvious trend I've noticed in creationist arguments. It's probably been observed before, but I just wanted to bring it up.

The creationists believe that all they need is one "magic bullet" argument to completely puncture evolution. So they'll bring up an argument and say "Since my point X is true, evolution is impossible."

Your usual response is to explain that either X is not true, or that X does not contradict evolution. Frequently you explain exactly how evolution could be reconciled with their argument, proving that their whole point is invalid. At this point they will invariably pull the amazing switcheroo on you and say: "But that doesn't PROVE that evolution did happen!" -- which leaves them free to wander off in search of the next magic bullet.

Of course you didn't prove evolution. The proof lies in the combined total of many decades of accumulated research and observation. This misdirection distracts from the real point, which was not to prove evolution, but to point out that the single uber-argument or sound bite isn't a meaningful way to attack the broader theory.

The creationist mind at work is truly fascinating to watch.

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

Back in 1998, a post on the Calvin College evolution mailing list talked about how difficult the transition from theistic anti-evolutionist to theistic evolutionist could be. In my response to that letter, I used the same "magic bullet" concept:

I tend to think of SciCre argumentation, and even some of the ID argumentation, as a search for a "magic bullet". By this, I don't mean it in the sense that Ehrlich did when searching for a cure for syphilis. I mean it in the sense of werewolf movies. There, the magic bullet is simply a silver slug that will destroy the lycanthrope on contact. Those wielding the magic bullet need invest no other effort in dealing with the lycanthrope, are not required to be pure in spirit, and certainly have no need to *understand* lycanthropy in any deep sesne. Similarly, the SciCre "professionals" are engaged in the peddling of "magic bullets", which retain their magic only so long as they aren't used on real lycanthropes. The magic bullet users, as Scott relates, remain secure in their faith that the evil lycanthropes can be held at bay or vanquished, right up until the time the magic bullet is fired -- and is found to have lost its virtue.

Instead of magic bullets like "too little moon dust" or "materialistic philosophy", more good would come of trying to understand what exactly evolutionary biology is. As it is, creationist belief has tended more and more to resemble evolutionary biology. In little more than a century and a half, we have seen a change from general adherence to the doctrine of special creation to a range of beliefs, at the most different from evolutionary biology, creation of each separate "kind" (which when defined at all, tends to be defined such that the evolutionist term "clade" comes close to fitting the concept), and at the least different, a belief in physical common descent but separate imbuement of spirit.

[ Personal paradigm shifts]

Wesley

Entry 10

Feedback Letter

From
Jeremy Chappell
Comment
This is continuing the intelligent design "feedback" I sent last time. I contended that there were ways to empirically test design. Mr. Wilkins responded by saying that that would only be possible if, through methodological naturalism, we knew how the designer worked. I think that is only half correct. There are two ways, I think, to test design. One is what Mr. Wilkins was referring to (understanding how the agent works), and the other is through a process of elimination (knowing how other agents do NOT work). The second is obviously the more difficult of the two, because it is always difficult to prove something CAN'T happen. Mr. Wilkins asked on what grounds, without a priori knowledge of how the designer might or might not work, "could we distinguish between an ID-caused event and a non-ID caused event". Isn't it obvious? We may not know how supposedly supernatural agents might work, but we DO know how nature works - at least to an extent. And if something could NOT happen naturally, does it not logically follow that it must have happened supernaturally? Some scientists believe that these "irreducibly complex" systems exist, others don't. But that is not the point. The point is that(supernatural) design CAN BE TESTED EMPIRICALLY. Now, on the other hand, I can see your point in that we may not be able to distinguish between "naturally occuring gasoline and placed gasoline". I think what you mean, in other words, is that a designer might use natural methods for design, thus making the agent indistinguishable from natural forces (i.e. unable to be tested for empirically). But I am referring specifically to supernatural design. You can contend all you want that there is no reason to consider living things as the result of design, but that does not mean that there is no way to empirically test supernatural design, nor that, if backed by evidence, ID theories should not be counted as "science". On to bad design: "bad design" arguments rest on 3 assumptions:

1. things are designed 2. things that were designed who-knows-how-long-ago were essentially the same then as they are today 3. we know something about the motives and methods of the agent

The first assumption is obviously temporary, for the debater is actually using it to argue AGAINST "ID". But regarding the second assumption, I ask you: how do we know that [fill in the blank] are the same today as they were originally designed (hypothetically speaking)? Assumption #3 is the most important because YOU SAID YOURSELF that "there are, by definition, no scientific reasons for thinking something is designed unless we have a (methodologically natural) knowledge of the agents that produced it." Scientifically, we obviously do not have this knowlege. ON WHAT BASIS, then, is something considered bad? You said that "a spine that fails to properly support the organs and weight of an animal is bad design no matter who looks at it." Without a priori knowledge of the agent, how can we say it is bad? It IS subjective! Who knows? Perhaps the designer LIKES to screw up, or maybe it enjoys inflicting faulty features upon us, maybe it thinks it's hilarious (that would probably explain a lot of things about life)! Who knows? By declaring something "bad design" you are arguing against a designer that goes with the stereotypical definitions you have given it (i.e. that it would have wanted to create everything to function properly). THey may seem like reasonable stereotypes, but without a (methodologically natural) knowledge of the methods &/ motives of the designer, there is no reason to accept them as correct.

Response

From
John Wilkins
Author of
Evolution and Philosophy
Response
The problem with simple elimination is that there are an infinite number of possible hypotheses to eliminate - you have to weight them according to your existing knowledge. If the "designer" hypothesis is weighted highly, then after you eliminate a few hypotheses you might reach it and be satisfied. If you weight it very lowly, then you may never reach it because all the other hypotheses will come first. But to weight design highly is to give the game away from the beginning; it's question-begging.

We know a fair bit about nature, but not enough to say "this event is not possibly natural". At best we can say "this event is inexplicable on the basis of what we know about nature now". We might even say "this event is in direct contradiction to all known laws of nature". But we can't say that an observed event is supernatural, at least not just on the basis of science.

What design we do know is entirely natural. If something begins to look to us like it is designed, then we are obliged to seek a natural explanation for it, unless the analogy to ordinary design doesn't hold, in which case why make the analogy in the first place?

On bad design (which as Pratchett has said is evidence of a blind watchmaker): if we can envisage better (more efficient or more fault tolerant or making better use of natural principles) designs, then we are entitled to say that a design is faulty. The agent's motives (which are hidden to us in scientific terms anyway) are besides the point, unless the designer we are inferring is a very bad designer. Perhaps that is the argument IDers want to make. I find that (subjectively) unsatisfying as a substitute for evolutionary theory.

Entry 11

Feedback Letter

From
Stephen Moles
Comment
If the immediate precursor species of the giraffe was nutritionally fulfilled from eating foliage close the ground, what was the evolutionary motivation for the elongation of its neck?

And if the evolutionary motivation was the desire to eat elevated foliage, what did it eat until its neck had elongated sufficiently to reach it?

This I have called my, "Dissatisfied Giraffe Conundrum," and is based on my current belief that nature (while remaining true to a fundamental if enigmatic configuration) will always choose the path of least resistance. It?s easier (and safer for the future of the species) for a giraffe to remain a giraffe rather than evolve into something else.

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

Tree leaves that are high above the ground represent a food resource. Mammalian species have utilized a variety of adaptations to take advantage of this resource. Koalas and sloths climb the trees to get the leaves. Elephants may use their trunk to pull down tree limbs. Giraffes have an elongated neck and a specialized tongue.

The okapi is an extant relative of the giraffe. As a browser, it utilizes food resources both near the ground and on shrubs or trees. It also has a long tongue which is used to collect leaves from tree branches.

The giraffe is simply a specialist browser utilizing a food resource for which it need not compete with many other browsing or grazing species. The route to specialization is not discontinuous, as the example of the okapi shows.

Wesley

Entry 12

Feedback Letter

Comment
I just read the 'various interpretations of Genesis and was dissapointed with one of the interpretations. This was that Genesis is just a reflection of history and open to errors. I totally disagree!! The bible is the infallable word of God and there is great evidence to suggest that is is a very reliable source. I don't think you can believe some of the bible you must believe it all or doubt it all. You either believe it is true or false. There is a verse in the new testament that states that the bible is the inspired word of God. It doesn't say "some of it is". Genesis is an accurate account of creation. I don't have a problem in saying that I believe God could have created the universe in 7 minutes if he wanted. It may have been 7 days of 24 hours or 7 periods of time. The point is God is God and he can do anything and everything. We often try and explain things differently because we're just human and if we cannot comprehend that the universe was created in a week than we try and interpret the bible differently. Science is good, it's good to have a reason for the things which we believe (i.e. evidence that supports our view) However we are human and we'll never understand everything, there's so much that science cannot yet explain so to start trying to explain everything, even if it out of our league is silly.

This is fact, God exists and he created the universe. He gave us the bible so we would know the truth and wouldn't have to make up our own. Yet peole still try.

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

The reader's argument hinges upon taking the Bible as a unitary item, "all one piece", as it were. However, history indicates otherwise. The composition of the Bible is not agreed upon universally. There are several books in the Roman Catholic bible taken as canon which are absent from the King James Version and its derivatives. Further, the inclusion or exclusion of specific books for the Catholic canon was a matter decided at the Council of Hippo, sometime about 400 AD. Such items as the "Gospel of Thomas" failed to make the cut. It is obvious that such "books" were considered scriptural to some degree or other and required further human judgment to either accept or reject as canon. This argues strongly against the "all or nothing" stance taken by the reader. Obviously, there were doubts about some previously included "books of the Bible", and rather than discarding all of them, various editors excluded some of them. The Bible's composition is due to a selection process.

Wesley

Entry 13

Feedback Letter

From
steven
Comment
Read a book by A.E Wilder Smith

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

That can be an amusing pastime. See my essay, Enterprising Science Needs Naturalism, where I utilize a howler from one of Wilder-Smith's books as a case study in how not to infer supernatural intervention.

Wesley

Entry 14

Feedback Letter

From
Jonathan Lee Hayes
Comment
I would like to express my thanks to those that obviously contributed so much time and effort to the talk.origins website. I found it to be informative, helpful, well-designed and a good source of data to counterbalance the frequently unsubstantiated claims of creationists.
Entry 15

Feedback Letter

From
Josh Grose
Comment
"Why doesn't the archive contain any articles that support creationism?"

"The Talk.Origins Archive exists to provide mainstream scientific responses to...", Sorry, but with over half of the worlds population believing in some type of "higher-power" how do you manage to call anti-god literature mainstream?

Also, If you need some articles Or if you want to loose a debate you should get in contact with the Black Hills Creation Science Assoc. Contact me for BHCSA contact information. Thanks for your time!

Response

From
Chris Ho-Stuart
Response
The archive is not anti-God. It exists to explain the mainstream scientific model for origins, and to refute a creationist model which is emphatically not a consequence of belief in God, but a consequence of one rather idiosyncratic way of reading certain parts of the bible.
Entry 16

Feedback Letter

From
Benton Grey
Comment
So, this is simply to make Creationists look like fools, grouping us generaly with Jehova's witnesses and Flat Earth society people? Well, I hate to tell you, but it is not all that simple, I believe in IDT, or Intelligent Design Theory, and yes, the world is MUCH to complicated to occur completly at random, the evidence points to SOMETHING outside of the normal laws. That is what we believe, it's insulting to be grouped with a number of people like these wackos.

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

Don't complain to us about your choice of association. Intelligent Design Creationism (IDC) is intellectually allied with various young-earth creationist views. Phillip Johnson's "wedge" strategy seeks to utilize the larger numbers of YEC adherents to further the IDC political movement. Essentially, Johnson is calling for all theistic anti-evolutionists to gather behind the IDC banner until Darwinian theories of evolution are excluded from classrooms or only present for the purpose of ridicule. After that is accomplished, then it will be an appropriate time to take up the internal doctrinal disputes that currently divide theistic anti-evolutionists.

IDC uses many of the very same invalid arguments that have been put forward by YECs for decades. IDC lectures are featured items in YEC calendars-of-events. IDC tactics are derived from YEC political action policy, and have certain features to avoid pitfalls that were exposed in the decades of YEC losses in court cases. There is at least one well-known YEC, Paul Nelson, who is one of the leading IDC proponents, which certainly argues against the position that IDC excludes YEC belief. There is no tenet adhered to by IDC proponents that would exclude simultaneously holding a YEC belief system. IDC proponents simply advance weaker claims than YEC types do, which makes them somewhat harder to rebut. One will notice that IDC seeks out gaps in our knowledge. Although IDC proponents deny that they pursue "God-of-the-gaps" type arguments, it is pretty plain that this is in fact the preferred style of argument within IDC.

An extended look at the IDC phenomenon can be found in Robert Pennock's "Tower Of Babel".

Fortunately, no biologist believes that adaptation occurs "completely at random". If that is what IDC proponents object to, then they can easily get the biological community behind them on that point. On the other hand, the implication that something outside of "normal laws" must be at work would be something that biologists in general would disagree with. I discussed how the appeal to supernatural causation is always premature in my paper at the 1997 Naturalism, Theism, and the Scientific Enterprise conference. Also, see my page on criticisms of the views of William A. Dembski, one of the foremost IDC proponents.

Wesley

Entry 17

Feedback Letter

Comment
Was wondering why you didn't publish on your site or pages the full title of Darwins book:

The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life

You have it as simply the origin of species. The first is the correct title of his publication and yours is not the truthful 100% title of his book.

Responses

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

If the implication is that the full title is somehow too embarrassing, the reader is wrong. The full title is referenced in several places on the archive.

It is, though, disconcerting that the full title is not on the pages that actually show the text of the book. I will look into it.

Wesley

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

The etext of Darwin's first edition of "On the Origin of Species..." now lists the complete title on that URL, thanks to Brett Vickers.

Wesley

Entry 18

Feedback Letter

From
Chris Musther
Comment
Having read your article on genetic drift as research for Uni, I followed a link to a 'creationist' page. It seems to me it isn't an unbiased explanation of creationism as I expected, but an airing of your own anti-creationist views. Perhaps it is not a view held by yourselves, but it deserves a fair hearing?

Responses

From
John Wilkins
Response
That would be why we have an extensive listing of creationist and antievolutionist pages on our site. See how many creationist sites return the compliment. We make no bones about presenting the scientific opinion about evolution, and the welcome page makes this clear, but we do expect people will make up their own minds. Few creationist or antievolution sites make that assumption.
From
Chris Ho-Stuart
Response
Further to John's remarks. Our reader is refering to the index to the archive supplied at the base of many FAQs. It was not a link to a creationist page, but a link marked Creationism. This takes you to a page about creationism, with the heading Arguments Against Creationism. People often drop in to the archive without checking our perspective, as explained in the home page and welcome page. For such visitors, the page heading will still let them know our position.
Entry 19

Feedback Letter

From
ryan dickinson
Comment
How can i be sure that your info. is accurate. what sources did you use?

Response

From
Chris Ho-Stuart
Response
From the archive Welcome page I extract:

"How do I know the contents of this archive are reliable?"

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Entry 20

Feedback Letter

Comment
My questions is the following: Why is it so commonplace to see on the back of cars bumpers the symbol of the Christian fish with the darwin name inside of it, or the darwin name inside the Christian fish symbol with feet on it? Or even the name darwin in a fish symbol portraying eating the Christian fish symbol?

I can only assume that these people who have these symbols on their cars believe that Darwin is right and the Christian is wrong in the ongoing debate over Creationism and Evalutionism.

i.e. God had nothing to do with the creation because we as humans came from aps (or evolved).

Can anyone explain this for me, regaurding my observations of these symbols. Thank you

Responses

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

I'm sure that many people who sport the "Darwin fish" logo do so to express the idea that Darwin is right and various literalist anti-evolution interpretations are wrong. But that is not necessarily true of all users of the "Darwin fish" logo.

The Christian fish symbol came about as a means of identifying those with similar beliefs. Some "Darwin fish" users may do so in a similar manner, saying, "Here is how I view the evolution-creation controversy."

Eugenie Scott pointed out an instance of a car that sported both the Christian fish and a "Darwin fish" logo side-by-side on the rear bumper.

As for what is commonly seen, I see far more "Christian fish eating Darwin fish", "dead Darwin fish" (legs up in the air, eyes X'ed out), and other such variants. I haven't yet encountered a "Darwin fish eating Christian fish" logo. One vehicle that stands out in my memory was a battered Dodge Charger sporting a "Christian fish eating Darwin fish" logo painted on the side, and on the front quarter-panel was noted a score: "Charger: 3, Deer: 0".

The "Darwin" logo users should be given the benefit of the doubt. The logo seems to me to be a very mild parody.

Wesley

From
Kenneth Fair
Response
See the responses to Tim Mitchell's letter in the October 1998 Feedback.
Entry 21

Feedback Letter

From
Flip Websterr
Comment
You all deserve hearty congratulations and thanks for taking the trouble to present such a well balanced and responsible web site. I haven't visited your site for a year or so and I was struck by how calmly rational your respones are to feedback. It's all done very thoughtfully and sensitively. Congratulations. Keep up the good work, please.
Entry 22

Feedback Letter

Comment
is it not ironic that Evolution is so religiously defended!!

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

I'm afraid I don't see evolution "religiously defended". What I do see is that various concepts in evolutionary biology are attacked by those with some religious agenda. That scientists choose to defend concepts that have passed empirical muster should come as no surprise. It takes a lot of chutzpah to then invert reality to claim that the defense is "religious".

Wesley

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