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Feedback Compilation

Feedback for December 1997

Selected reader letters and TalkOrigins responses from December 1997.

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Entry 1

Feedback Letter

Comment
What would you recommend reading if you were doing a report on how Charles Darwin's theories changed society?

if you could respond to this soon, it would really be great

Thanks

Response

From
John Wilkins
Author of
Darwin's precursors and influences
Response
I recommend:

Darwin and his critics; the reception of Darwin's theory of evolution by the scientific community, David L. Hull. Cambridge, Mass., Harvard University Press, 1973.

This book has excerpts from contemporaries and later of Darwin with an introduction by Hull on the significance of each piece.

A readable overview of Darwin's impact is found in

Charles Darwin: The Man and his Influence, Peter J Bowler Blackwell, Oxford, 1990

Literary and philosophical responses are given in

Appleman, Philip, ed. Darwin., New York, Norton, 1970

which is still in print. Appleman also has a book of poetry on Darwin:

Darwin's ark: poems by Philip Appleman; illustrations by Rudy Pozzatti. Bloomington : Indiana University Press, 1984

A handy social background to the scientific debates is

The Darwinian revolution: science red in tooth and claw, Michael Ruse. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1979

The philosophical impact of Darwinism is dealt with in many books. The most accessible is

The triumph of the Darwinian method with a new preface, Michael T. Ghiselin, Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1984, c1969

If you want to understand the background to the social Darwinism movement read

Social Darwinism in European and American thought, 1860-1945: nature as model and nature as threat, Mike Hawkins, New York: Cambridge University Press, 1997

I haven't read this yet, but it supercedes the older book by Hofstadter.

The influence of Darwinism on eugenics is admirably covered in detail by

In the name of eugenics: genetics and the uses of human heredity by Daniel J. Kevles, New York : Knopf, 1985

Entry 2

Feedback Letter

Comment
Question: A new creationist ruse seems to be afoot. Recently I was debating a creationist who appeared to be using a cooked version of "information theory" to "prove" that DNA was specially created. He argued something resembling "there was no instance of anything creating something containing more information then what had created it" -- implying that the "information" contained in the genetic code could not have arisen spontaneously from a simpler replicator.

My reply to him was that "information" is not a physical or chemical property of matter, but is only quantifiable when a system of HUMAN interpretation is applied to it; therefore it was fallacious of him to try to devise/apply a "law" governing "information" and use it to predict the plausibility of a physical process such as the evolution of DNA from simpler precursors. I also mentioned Computer Aided Software Engineering, which if I understand correctly can produce software source and/or object code much more "complex" than what was given to it.

It was then and there that he decided that he could not discuss the issue with someone like myself who wouldn't agree to basic definitions such as the above. (Har har.) I'll stand by my argument that it's fallacious to treat "information" as if it were a property of matter subject to physical laws, but I'd like a little more backing for that position.

I'm very capable of handling creation vs. evolution, and am debating the issue at this moment in the Chinook Observer newspaper in Long Beach, WA. However, the "information" ploy above is a new one and I think the tactic may arise in this present debate.

David

Response

From
John Wilkins
Author of
Evolution and Philosophy
Response
You may like to see how information theory has been applied to evolution: Evolution as Entropy by DR Brooks and EO Wiley, second edition, 1988. However, first, I recommend you read up on Shannon-Weaver information theory in general.

I think that you are right that information (which is defined in Shannon-Weaver information theory as the number of bits required to specify the message in a given protocol, that is, the number of binary decisions to reach the final state of the message) is relative to the interpretation. This is, after all, what the protocols of computer networks do; they specify how the packets of information are to be encoded and decoded. And that's what the DNA code does for enzymes and polypeptides and the like that go to make up an organism; it interprets the code in physical terms.

Your creationist conversant might like to reflect on "noise" and "error propagation" as well; if we think of genes as messages, then mutations are the noise in the transmission, which can get propagated if the circumstances are right, and eventually even become the message (if it makes more "sense" in that protocol).

Entry 3

Feedback Letter

From
John A. Davison
Comment
Why does everyone insist that evolution is still going on? All the real evidence indicates that it is finished.

Response

From
John Wilkins
Author of
Evolution and Philosophy
Response
Usually, when someone says that evolution has "finished" they mean something like "evolution has gone as far as it can go now that humans have evolved with their ability to control their destiny", or something similar. However, evolution doesn't "go" anywhere, it just goes.

Humans are one among many large organisms, but we may or may not survive for very long, in evolutionary terms. Certainly the effect we have on the environment is evolutionarily important, but there is no real evidence that we are changing our genetic makeup in any significant manner and even if we engineer new genetic information in some humans, the bulk of humanity is likely to be pretty much the same as it has been for tens of thousands of years.

Humans are still subject to natural selection (which operates over periods of time far longer than mere cultural timescales), and evidence of that is clear in the research done into, for example, sickle cell anemia in regions where malaria is endemic. The gene frequencies for this condition conform to the predictions of natural selection, called the Hardy-Weinberg Equiblibrium.

If all humans were exterminated tomorrow, evolution would continue to proceed, with some organisms adapting to the new environment and others becoming extinct. We do not "cap" evolution, even though we think of ourselves as the "final" stage.

Entry 4

Feedback Letter

From
Maximiliano Carlos Nieto
Comment
In my library, I have a collection of some very interesting books. As a matter of fact, my office is filled with various pieces of interesting material. It is not __impossible__ for me to have a favourable view of evolution, if, that evolution is "post-creation". It is impossible, however for me to fathom a universe with untold levels of complexity, to have arrived at the point in which we find ourselves in today - through a series of "natural selection" processees, following an unexplained "explosion".

The "evolution" of even the most minor volumes in my library, having been composed, created, typeset, paginated, cut, and finally bound in a cover - all to have been a result of a "small explosion" in my office, is but a minor feat in comparison to the existance of our universe, or for that matter the brain occupying our cranial cavity.

However, I suppose that "given enough time" anything can happen. That statement.. hmmm, just doesn't sound very scientific. And now, in spite of the mathematical calculations of something of that scale happening "by chance", we find ourselves looking at our "celestial" neighbors to determine whether any lifeforms have existed there in the past.

The more I come to understand about the VASTNESS of our galaxy, the more I understand how really insignificant we are. Man has "put God into a petri dish" and decided to study Him. Amazing!

Response

From
Chris Ho-Stuart
Response
Evolution does not propose that "given enough time" anything can happen. That indeed would be unscientific. Also, the mathematical calculations of things happening "by change" cited in criticism of evolution are nearly always worthless multiplications of big numbers as if all events were independent, taking no account of of the highly non-random processes involved in the evolution of life.

What evolution proposes is that imperfectly reproducing entities will, given enough time, diversify to a wide range of forms. Since your books are not reproducing entities, they are not a good analogy for evolutionary processes.

Entry 5

Feedback Letter

From
Eric Coles
Comment
This is more of a question than a comment. I'm looking for information on the "four corner" of the Flat Earth Society. Can you help me?

Response

From
Kenneth Fair
Response
Take a look at the The Flat Earth Society FAQ, which has contact information for the group.
Entry 6

Feedback Letter

From
Bob
Comment
It all comes down to a simple question: Do you believe in imperfect, greedy, fallible, small minded, sinful, men trying so hard to explain the wonders of the universe, or in a perfect, holy, God, incapable of LYING (i.e. the Bible), or being given to the lusts of money and fame? Answer me that.

Response

From
Frank Steiger
Response
Science seeks only to learn how nature behaves. It doesn't deal with matters of religion and philosophy. There is nothing in evolution that rules out the existence of God. Scientists do not lust for money and fame any more than other folks, and that includes some television evangelists. Since I don't believe God would lie, I can't accept a Biblical version of creation that is completely at odds with what we can observe in nature. As far as your reference to those who do not accept your religious dogma as being small minded and sinful, let me refer you to Jesus's commandment in Matthew 7:1-2: "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
Entry 7

Feedback Letter

From
Jack Chastain
Comment
Absolutely the most marvelous site I have visited to date! I now have solid information to back up many of my discussions. I hope to spend much more time studying the information and links here.

It is amazing to note the comments that indicate a lack of "objective" point of view on your parts (I must assume many people maintain the site!) with the eclectic links and generally un-biased commentary.

It has been said (and I subscribe) that Science involves [as much, if not] more faith than religion. I believe in placing faith in observation, logic and structure. Scientific method suits this manner of "faith" and your site does much to support the concept.

Response

From
Kenneth Fair
Response

I am glad that you have found the information here to be useful.

The Talk.Origins Archive is indeed maintained by many people. The computer carrying the site is maintained by Brett Vickers, so he has final determination over the contents of the site, quite obviously. The various FAQs found in the archive are written and updated by their respective authors. Responses to feedback (such as this one) are given by a number of people, including myself and Mr. Vickers. Each of us has our own viewpoints, of course, but we all try to respond in the spirit of the archive's charter as stated on its home page:

This archive is a collection of articles and essays, most of which have appeared in talk.origins at one time or another. The primary reason for this archive's existence is to provide mainstream scientific responses to the many frequently asked questions (FAQs) and frequently rebutted assertions that appear in talk.origins.

We try to be as objective as possible about the prevailing scientific evidence on the questions of origins. This does mean that we do not satisfy everyone, and we are often accused of bias or a lack of objectivity. Our response is that the creationist viewpoint is best presented by the creationists themselves, and to that end we provide a large list of links to other sites, including many creationist Web sites.

Regarding your comments on faith, I would point out that the only "faith" involved in examining scientific evidence is the faith that one's eyes and ears are not deceivers, a "faith" which is just as necessary for religious belief--indeed, which is necessary for sanity--as it is for making scientific observations.

Entry 8

Feedback Letter

Comment
This site and its companions are an excellent refutation of the distortions and misrepresentations endemic to the Creationist "questions" about evolution. How anyone could even briefly glance at any of the FAQs and remain a literal interpreter of Genesis is totally beyond me. One question, though - I know a common tactic of Creationists is to misquote or quote an authority out of context, like the "Darwin and the eye" misquote. On talk.origins many people have referred to a Steven Jay Gould quote that is typically given out of context, but I can't seem to find the exact text anywhere. Can you tell me what it is? Or give a reference? Don't knock yourself out if it's a lot of trouble; I'm just curious.

Keep up the good work,

Dan Ingles

Response

From
the editor
Response
One of the Gould/Eldredge quotes creationists love to exploit and take out of context is as follows:

At the higher level of evolutionary transition between basic morphological designs, gradualism has always been in trouble, though it remains the "official" position of most Western evolutionists. Smooth intermediates between Bauplane are almost impossible to construct, even in thought experiments; there is certainly no evidence for them in the fossil record (curious mosaics like Archaeopteryx do not count). (Eldredge and Gould, 1977)

See Chris Nedin's article, Archaeopteryx, the Challenge of the Fossil Record, for the full context and an explanation.

Entry 9

Feedback Letter

From
Dennis Billey
Comment
I wonder if I may make a few comments in regards to the flood of Noah. I have done a lot of research on this matter and would be like your comments on this matter.

Response

From
Kenneth Fair
Response
You are quite welcome to, although your comments would be best addressed to the talk.origins newsgroup, where they can be debated in a more timely fashion. Be sure that you are familiar with the arguments presented in the Problems With a Global Flood FAQ before you do so, however.
Entry 10

Feedback Letter

From
Matt Tansy
Comment
Have you considered analyzing comments for misspellings versus peoples' position on the issue? Just from my casual reading of the feedback comments, most of the spelling mistakes seems to come from one side of the issue!

Response

From
Kenneth Fair
Response
Some of us in the talk.origins newsgroup have our own side bets on this issue. I won't say which side the odds are leaning towards, but you can probably guess what they are.
Entry 11

Feedback Letter

From
David Milstein
Comment
Trying to find a site that was recommended in the October 1997 issue of Natural History magazine. Site was reported as www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/fiction.html. Site was reported as a review of the fiction associated with paleoanthropology fiction. Thanks for your help

Response

From
Chris Ho-Stuart
Response
That page is part of Jim Foley's excellent Fossil Hominids FAQ. The full URL is http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/fiction.html.
Entry 12

Feedback Letter

From
Hambone
Comment
The opening page that is recommended for understanding evolution has one big glaring mistake in it that stopped me from reading the rest. The moth example. Come on, people. This is what gives creationists fuel to blast evolutionists. The whole story is that there are 2 colors of moths, one white one black. Long ago, there was also a fungus on the trees that made the white moths hard to see, so the birds ate the black moths. Then when industry came around the fungus died. Thus the black moths were harder to see and the birds ate the white moths. Thus a shift in the population. This is a fine example of "survival of the fittest" but has NOTHING to do with evolution as presented in that paper.

Please stop using this as an example of evolution, for it is not.

Thank you

Responses

From
Chris Ho-Stuart
Response
The moths are, in fact, a valid example of evolution. Why you consider it otherwise is not clear to me.
From
Kenneth Fair
Response
As Chris points out, this is an example of evolution; specifically, the fact of evolution. Evolution is the change in genetic makeup of a population of organisms over time; thus, the example of the peppered moth qualifies as such. See the What is Evolution? FAQ for more information on how evolution is defined by scientists.

Note that this fact of evolution is distinguished from the theory of evolution (actually, theories). Theories in evolutionary biology are like theories in any other branch of science; they are models based on evidence that make predictions about future observations. See the Evolution is a Fact and a Theory FAQ for more information on the distinction between the fact of evolution and the theory of evolution.

From
Chris Ho-Stuart
Response
I have a slightly different perspective from Ken, so I'll expand on my original comment a bit.

Any change in the genetic makeup of a population of organisms over time is evolutionary by definition; and the peppered moth illustrates just such a change. It serves as a good example of how natural selection leads to such evolutionary changes, and how evolutionary change can be observed occuring at present.

If you think that this is not a valid example of evolution because it does not involve generation of new species or new organs, then you have not yet understood evolutionary theory, and you may like to consider those moths more carefully. Change is cummulative. Small rates of change, over long periods of time, can lead to arbitrarily large differences. The moths are a case of relatively rapid evolutionary change. Such natural selection, together with the observed continuous introduction of random genetic variation by slightly imperfect reproduction, is the theoretical basis for evolution.

The fact of evolution -- that all the present diverse forms of life arose over a long periods of time by descent and divergence from common ancestral populations -- has been established beyond any serious doubt. The theory -- the explanatory framework for that fact -- is founded on the notion of evolutionary change, which is change in heritable characteristics in populations over time. One process which affects that change is natural selection, and the moths serve as a good example of that evolutionary effect in operation.

Entry 13

Feedback Letter

Comment
The Article "The General Anti-Creationism FAQ", by Jim Meritt, is not only incomplete in its brevity, but contains claims entirely unsupported by facts. I was attempting to do research on a project on Comparative Embryology, and was not only distracted by the misleading title of the article, but was astonished to see the ridiculous audacity of the headings. I use "The Bible is always right" as an example. The religeous superiority that this statement implies is the root of all religious, racial and sexual predjudice that is exhibited in Modern civilization. This statement is entirely inappropriate for an intelligent debate.

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response
Meritt was not advancing "The Bible is always right" as an assertion that he felt was true. In fact, if you had clicked on the link, you would have found Jim's reasons for believing the assertion to be false. Please take some more time to examine Meritt's work; I think you missed the good stuff entirely.
Entry 14

Feedback Letter

From
Nancy Eckert
Comment
I found you after looking for Eugenie scott -- and I so much enjoyed the two-hour Firing Line on PBS, which I viewed last night. I'm a theologian (slanted Anglican) AND an evolutionist. To limit God in a creationist mind-set seems highly insulting to Him. I'll stop there....
Entry 15

Feedback Letter

From
JBechtel
Comment
I teach college; not biology but American History, Sociology, and World Civilizations. But I have a background in science (I was originally an engineer) and I just want to say I LOVE YOUR SITE, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, AND DON'T GET DISCOURAGED! They'll never win. Even if our Western technological civilization "should in some deep sense decay and some other culture take its place, it is a safe bet that, short of a return to total primitivism, the new schools will also be teaching Euclid's geometry, Harvey's blood circulation, Newtonian dynamics, Einstein's space-time, Norbert Wiener's cybernetics, and the Watso-Crick double helix. These wheels can not be un-invented." (Holton, Science and Anti-Science, Harvard, p. 135.) I don't know where you folks find the saintly patience you show in dealing with the creationists, but I find Holton's words comforting. These wheels can not be un-invented. Anyway, just wanted to let you know you're appreciated.
Entry 16

Feedback Letter

From
Mark Rickert
Comment
The FAQ on "Problems with a Worldwide Flood" at: presents the viewpoint of a totally biased, uneducated person. If they studied both sides of the argument enough, they would find the answers they were looking for in the Bible.

1. The Bible clearly states that God "called" the animals to the ark. Noah didn't have to go get them. God put the instinct in each animal to come there according to how long it would take for that animal to get there.

2. Animals that had special diets didn't have to bring food because before the flood, the world was like a greenhouse and everything grew locally everywhere.

3. Animals that now live on islands, didn't then. I suppose you have heard of "PANGEA." It was all one land mass before the flood, which made the continent separate into smaller pieces. The flood caused major earthquakes and tectonic shifting.

4. Noah did not have to take 9 million species aboard the ark. First of all, the reference is totally irrelevent: Genesis 7:4. He also didn't have to take on amphibians, and animals that live in the ocean. Who is to say that Noah didn't start loading the ark before that period in time, and that he didn't continue loading them after it had started raining? The Bible does say that Noah should take "each KIND of animal" (ex. not Pitwalski's Horse, the domesticated horse (and all of its variations), the pygmy horse, and the zebra... Noah only needed to take a male and a female from each FAMILY, not species.

I could give answers to many of these questions, but there are too many questions to go into right now.

If only you Evolutionists would open your eyes to the truth that is in the Bible. Yeah, I still have some questions that I haven't asked, but I know they are there somewhere.

Sincerely, Mark Rickert mrickert@bigfoot.com

Response

From
Chris Ho-Stuart
Response
1. The migration of all species raises more problems than it solves.
2. The notion of everything growing locally everywhere is not supported by evidence or by the bible. It is also impossible, given that different things required very different conditions for growth. It also does not resolve the question of feeding animals in the ark, or after devastation wrought by the flood.
3. The notion that PANGEA existed within the last 6000 years, or that there were no islands before the flood is also not supported from the bible, and is inconsistent with all available evidence.
4. The notion that all currently living species are descended from single couples representing each family requires fantastic rates of evolution in the last 6000 years. We do not observe such rates. The rates of evolution we observe today are rather more consistent with the millions of years time frames used in mainstream biology.

Your "answers" appear to be speculations, without any reference to evidence, and precious little to the bible. Anyone can make up such "answers", but quite rightly they have no real impact on either theology or science.

Entry 17

Feedback Letter

From
Rafael Brom
Comment
Theory of Evolution is proven fraud based not on science but on faith alone. Watch the video "Evolution Conspiracy".

Response

From
Kenneth Fair
Response
Ah yes, Mr. Brom, purveyor of "Catholic" conspiracy videos. Two points:
  1. The Catholic church recognizes the theory of evolution as a legitimate scientific theory.
  2. Evolution is a complex and diverse set of scientific theories, with over one hundred years of amassed evidence and development. I hardly think a one-hour video can suffice to wholly refute it.
Entry 18

Feedback Letter

Comment
you need to rename this web site..this web site is very racist and biased on views...any one can easily spot your biased views on evoultion

Response

From
Kenneth Fair
Response
One should easily be able to spot the views endorsed by the Talk.Origins Archive; they are explained on the site's home page:

This archive is a collection of articles and essays, most of which have appeared in talk.origins at one time or another. The primary reason for this archive's existence is to provide mainstream scientific responses to the many frequently asked questions (FAQs) and frequently rebutted assertions that appear in talk.origins.

The Talk.Origins Archive makes no attempt to hide that it is presenting the mainstream scientific views on the questions of origins. It is the policy of the Talk.Origins Archive to allow "scientific creationists" to present their own views. As such, the Talk.Origins Archive has a large list of links to Web sites where creationists present their arguments.

As for "racist," I'm not sure what you mean. As racism is indefensible on scientific grounds, it is hard to see how a site committed to presenting mainstream scientific views could be promoting racism.

Entry 19

Feedback Letter

From
Cliff Soon
Comment
I'm wondering if the following has been addressed (or even Cremo's "Forbidden Archaeology"). Have these claims been examined or simply dismissed out of hand? It would seem to argue that more consideration should be given to the claims that "the hypothesis determines the observations" (Einstein):

Sorry, it's rather long - but here's the address I found this at: Strange Relics from the Depths of the Earth.

Response

From
the editor
Response
Many of the claims made on that web page have been discussed by Jim Foley in his Fossil Hominids FAQ, specifically on the page about fossil anomalies.
Entry 20

Feedback Letter

From
Jack Brooks
Comment
If the speed of light (C) has decreased by even half a percent, in order for E=MC² to balance, mass must have increased to compensate. This means that for a decrease from 186000 miles per second to 185000 miles per second for C (less than half a percent), the corresponding mass of the universe must have increased by 371 times. It seems that the earth is doomed to undergo gravitational collapse very shortly.

Response

From
Frank Steiger
Response
The speed of light has not decreased. There is no evidence whatever to indicate that this has happened.

The "light decay" argument is a fallacy cooked up by "young earth" creationists to try to explain the fact that we see galaxies as they existed billions of years ago.

Please refer to talk origins faqs file The Decay of c-decay and Is the Speed of Light Slowing Down? of my web page for detailed information.

Entry 21

Feedback Letter

Comment
YOU ARE CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!! THE EARTH IS ROUND ROUND ROUND!!!!!!!!!

Response

From
Kenneth Fair
Response
You appear to have confused the Talk.Origins Archive with the International Flat Earth Society. The Talk.Origins Archive does not endorse or support the views of the International Flat Earth Society.
Entry 22

Feedback Letter

Comment
Howdy!

I am a creationist, but I am uncomfortable in many respects with much of the current creationist's anti-science dialogue, and so I hesitate to connect myself with the current "creationism wave". Nevertheless, I have a few things to say and want to state outright where I'm coming from, so I will declare myself a creationist. I would like to add, however that I find that the most successful evolutionary science challenges my beliefs in the strongest way. Consequently, not without some frequency, I re-think what I believe and why. The process can be painful at times; nevertheless, often the most painful process leads to the most valuable discoveries. The net result is that certain aspects of my creationist view become stronger, while other parts either become less important, or discarded as, I cross paths with evolutionary science. I think that is as it should be.

At heart, and in practice, I suppose that I am more of a philosopher than a scientist. I am an associate professor in the chemistry department of a small (religious) liberal arts college, nationally recognized for academics.

I have been reading the comments on Popper vs. "real" science and found them very informative. The analogy of the teacher/ janitor was lucid. However, in every school, in addition to janitors, there are parents and school boards. Many janitors are parents, and I would imagine that there might even be an executive of a janitorial company, or even a janitor, sitting on the board of one or two schools somewhere. Evolutionary science is not so far removed (in my humble opinion) as it would suppose, from those elements of the social web (including, philosophy and/or religion) that it might sometimes like to see itself as distant from. Science may be a big fish, but I contend, arguably, that society is a lot smaller fish bowl than science often likes to acknowledge.

One protest that I have about evolutionary science as I have encountered it, is the way that even though it has effectively eliminated dependence upon the "divine" in its methodology for acquiring knowledge, it frequenlty ignores the fact that it is still a only a human enterprise. Science pretty much takes the attitude that what is knowable can be known ONLY by its methodologies, and that exclusively, whatever it assumes or discovers must be of ultimate validity. What I like about Popperism, is that it suggests some restrictions on what science can be expected to achieve which are at least secular and therefore I would expect palettable to science and scientists. I am disturbed by any enterprise which feels it must exclude itself completely from accountability or validity testing other than by its own internally prescribed methods. This seems to be assuming rather "divine" perogatives and the result is a rather parochial approach to gaining knowledge.

On a related issue, as a creationist, I am puzzled over the extent to which even serious evolutionary scientists exhibit at least some degree of anxiety over creationism (as an approach to understanding, not as a social force), in that evolutionary science frequently justifies itself on the standard of overcoming "creationist" or other metaphysical approaches. Why the anxiety?

Moreover, I am surprised to observe the extent to which evolutionary science at times seems to be still struggling to "gain a foothold" or "prove itself", even though it has so successfully entrenched itself in society. It's sort of like listening to a divorcee go on and on about the ex-spouse, even 10 years after the divorce.

Cheers!

MM

Response

From
Frank Steiger
Response
Science does not deal with matters of religion and philosophy. Scientists are only human, and sometimes try to back up their own philosophical beliefs by referring to scientific theory. This is wrong, just as it is wrong for creationists to invent "scientific" theories to try to establish that their own religious beliefs are the only legitimate ones.

My advice is to accept what is supported by the factual evidence, and be skeptical of what is not. Don't be swayed by unsupported "expert" opinions and fallacious arguments.

The factual evidence does not rule out the existence of a creator God. It only rules out the dogma that creation occurred as described in the Book of Genesis.

Entry 23

Feedback Letter

From
Kerri Angel
Comment
Actually I have more of a dilemma than anything else....I teach 7th and 8th grade science in a very religious community. I am a "recovering fundementalist" myself. I am now on the evolution unit that I am required by my state and school board to teach. I have several students who are very hostile towards the concept of evolution. I try to be as sensitive as possible to their concerns and needs. I know that it is difficult for these students to suddenly be given the "evil word." They have waited for this day to proclaim their faith before all others. I would love some advice for dealing with these students in a way that will allow them to feel okay about their faith, but also that evolution is a fact and not just a bunch of BS (and I don't mean Bachelor of Science). This is the worst year yet, usually I am able to placate and educate. But this year I have kids who just downright protest and refuse to do any assignments. Flunking them is not an option. I think it would be a loss in the battle to allow them to flunk. My principal advises that I give them a separate assignment. Any ideas? HELP! Thank you for the wonderful site....I printed several items... Kerri Angel

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Response

One argument to give your protesting students is that they will continue to encounter people who have studied what biologists actually say about evolution, and that if they want to have a better chance of countering evolutionary ideas, it helps to know what those are first.

When I took the core sequence of biology courses in my undergraduate days, the first thing that my instructor addressed was the issue of origins. What he said then was that while some people preferred a religious explanation for origins, that the course would cover only what science so far had to offer, and that discussion of extra-scientific ideas would not be part of the course.

Ideas that we disagree with do not go away simply because we ignore them. The best course, it seems to me, is to examine them, and to that end I have read widely in anti-evolution books, although I have consistently disagreed with the ideas presented therein. I have found that it doesn't hurt to know your correspondent's arguments better than they do themselves.

Entry 24

Feedback Letter

From
dennis diehl
Comment
As a church Pastor who has come to see that evolution is true and that Genesis is not a science book, let me congratulate you on your astounding resources on the net. I have been thinking of writing a book, Evolution is True-A Pastor's Perspective, and this material is outstanding. What a time to live to have so much wonderful science available. No threat to real truth!
Entry 25

Feedback Letter

From
Richard Kouchoo
Comment
"Woe, woe on thee, thou hast seen the last of thy babbling, for with thine own hands has thee DESTROYED your theory" Anonymous.

And this is exactly what L. SPETNER has done to your bogus Evolutionary theory in his spectacular book "Not by Chance" (Spetner 1997). To say that Spetner has COMPLETELY DESTROYED the basis of the your Neo-Darwinist garbage is a HUGE understatement. I suggest you censor this note since it's possible that your Sheepish audience will read Spetner's book and become Intelligent Design buffs, I am sure you bozos wouldn't want that!

Non-random Evolution is THE only way.

Response

From
Wesley R. Elsberry
Author of
Punctuated Equilibria
Response

It will be interesting to see the contents of L. Spetner's new book. Hopefully, he'll do better with this set of critiques than he did in claiming that Archaeopteryx was a hoax.

Entry 26

Feedback Letter

From
David Rottman
Comment
I have read all of Darwin's Origin of Species, and have come to the conclusion that evolution is a very smart theory, but that is all. The fact is, evolution is taught in schools from the start. That does not anger me, but my point is, it should be taught as theory and not fact.

Response

From
John Wilkins
Author of
Evolution and Philosophy
Response
Firstly, try reading something a bit more modern. The Origin is historically very important in the development of evolutionary theory but it is not holy writ, either now or then. I suggest Richard Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable as a start, and then you should read Douglas Futuyma's Evolution.

Secondly, understand that the sense of "theory" in "evolution is a theory" implies that all scientific knowledge is theoretical. All of it. Even the bits that drive your TV. After all, nobody's ever seen an electron, at least, not without some pretty highly derived equipment and theories of physics. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure even the most skeptical type doesn't want to test the theory of electricity by sticking their fingers into a power socket.

The Evolution is a Fact and a Theory FAQ gives some basic definitions. There are some serious collections of fact in evolutionary science and reconstructions, and the transmutation of species over time is as solid a conclusion as any other in science - all the evidence points to it. Moreover, natural selection, the mechanism Darwin posited as the cause for evolution, has been seen in action. It is no longer "just a theory" in any sense of the word. Everything that is generally included under the notion of evolution except for the origin of a new phylum or kingdom has been seen or is a very solid hypothesis.

Now, if we taught these sorts of fine semantic discriminations to primary and secondary school students, would we be helping them to understand science? Would we encourage them to take it up? Would we be equipping them to be able to enter into debates about public policy such as ecological issues from a position of knowledge? No, we would not. These are the aims of educating students about science. It isn't the "gee-whiz" factor; it isn't to find the "meaning of life" and it isn't to promote a moral or theological code. It is to aid in the understanding about the real world, the physical world, and to help us make decisions based on whatever public or private morality we may have that are at least grounded in fact. And make no mistake, evolution and natural selection are facts.

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